Francis Lynch

My name’s Francis Lynch. Thanks for joining me on the comments and Musings podcast today. I speak to Karyn Walsh AM the CEO of MICA projects in Queensland and we talked about the impacts of COVID-19 on her organisation.

Francis Lynch

Welcome, Karyn. Thanks for joining me on the comments and musings podcast. I’m talking to leaders from a range of organisations in the Community, health and aged care sectors, about how they’ve adapted to the impacts of COVID. 19 in 2020 we’re recording this in September, so we’re a few months in now and you know, organisations have made a lot of changes. About how they’ve done things before, we get into that. Can you just explain what micro projects is about?

Karyn Walsh

Sure thanks Francis Micah is a not-for-profit in Brisbane. We only have one service stream that is. Across the state, which is. Loaded place which works with people who experienced abuse. In institutional settings. Including faith communities out of home care, we have offices. In Rockinghamton Townsville and Brisbane. And outreach to the surrounding. Communities like the Gold Coast or. Cairns in Townsville , Bundaberg. Mackay. But the the rest. Of our work is is Brisbane based. And it’s the. We’re the regional service for domestic and family violence, so. Leaving around what is the divided response. How can we Improve the integration to make the experience of access and the range of services. The best it can be for women and children so that they can access safety, have their needs met and that. The men using the violence. Are accountable and have systems of account. Additionally, we have a young women streaming young mothers, young women in Brisbane and Brookshire or teenage parents, and we work with that for an early intervention programme that we also have had some occasional childcare for a year. That got a big hit with COVID. Where we can provide childcare. While we’re going to going to. Legal appointments, psychological appointments and case management. We have several teams of people working across homelessness, which has probably been the greatest impact of COVID in that we haven’t asserted that which team that works on the streets. Trying to get people into housing. pathways. We have a. Community hub where people come. For appointments or by phone for either preventing homelessness from occurring or the sack you know needing assistance. And that’s often families. Not as many rough sleepers, but some rough sleepers do. Not want to disclose. Where they’re sleeping. And they come to a hub. We have our families team. That’s dedicated to working with homeless families or preventing and helping homeless families sustain their tenancy. We have a couple of NDIS connectors. And we have a. Health team and a health clinic. That is trying. To integrate healthcare, reduce the inequality of access due to lifestyle or circumstances, and we have. One with the Royal and one with the P.A, which are our two. Main hospitals. It’s like it’s different in their designs, but we’re also trying to maximise MBS scaling through doctors. GP’s being in the mix. And we are the support provider. For Brisbane common ground. Part common ground with Queensland tenancy property manager which regards. 40,000 and 246 people. And we have a school programme that that is, you know, the old hack with NDIS after NDIS transition, which is a community. Connections trying to get. People connected in the community to activities. As well As for. Help, but we don’t have much money for the in home help. And we have a. Social enterprise that is comprised of two cafes.

Francis Lynch

So it’s really it’s quite a a broad range and it sort of touches a range of different types of service delivery. And you know some more health, some housing family, Violence. You know, social enterprise are coming, you know, housing and accommodation. So how has that been for you as an organisation in terms of actually adapting what you you’ve needed to do to to respond to COVID-19? Has it been sort of, you know, being able to do it as one or has it just been a whole series of separate projects?

Karyn Walsh

No, it’s been. Really interesting for us because we have. It has really enabled integration and the fact that we’ve been able to do that with the exception I’d say about early intervention services, which obviously are more focused on, they’ve done some great work with FaceTime and Facebook and keeping in. Touch in phone. Importantly they were able to. Keep open the antenatal clinic. Because it wasn’t in the. Hospital so young women with anxiety around antenatal care. People could still come they just didn’t  have a COVID safe plan. and. You know, I think that was a. Really important thing that people didn’t have to. Not have antenatal care or have it only through spite. So for the early intervention services and the family support, it was very much phone FaceTime, but also dropping things off at. People’s houses, if they needed their like formula. People will struggle. With the same things that mainstream community were but they. Can have the resources to go and. Fight for the formula. The shopping centre’s set out here has been. It was it. Yeah. So. It was interesting just that sustaining. Contact with people. It was really. Important and as soon as people. Could gather again, they really. Wanted to because of the social isolation. But with homelessness, I mean as you. Know Francis, it’s homelessness is just such a mix match of all our social service system. In some ways, filing was not being coordinated and the vulnerability. Of people is incredibly. High. So the ability to navigate systems is very compromised. But. During COVID, of course, the system’s closed down so. We really had to work out ways. That we could take services to people. You know we. Did have some new partnerships like at Chapel watch with an organisation that works four nights a week with the clubs providing a safe place if people are intoxicated, not homeless people just mainstream community so they’re service. They didn’t have any, they couldn’t do their job so they just. came and work with us for those three months, which was great. It doubled our capacity. We ended up with 1200 people in hotels, which surprised everybody. Because you know. We’ve actually saw rough sleeping up to about 150 before the lock down period. But then so many people were couch surfing and were asked to leave because. It was.

Francis Lynch

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Karyn Walsh

 So it made couch surfing visible but. What we saw was just such. Incredible amounts of unmet need, mental health, drug and alcohol abuse. You know, but we also saw amazing resilience. Like it probably was a. 150 people of the 1000. Who took up a lot. Of time and effort. But the others people were so greatful. A  for the income they had and could actualy live in a Hotel room and get some food. You know not. All of them had kitchenettes so, but people could still. Work out a way to have food. They had the money that enabled. Them to do that, they didn’t have to. Rely on free charitable food and people. Actually enjoyed that people had money to get their medications. If we could support them, we had. But there are a lot of people who are credibly disoriented, like they had lost contact with their services, lost contact. Some people. Left their family homes because. They were worried they were going. To not cope or be violent or and. Some people were. resistant with their medication. Because they weren’t in touch with their. Normal health practitioner, who would be supporting them. Do that. I suppose never before have we seen the value of having nurses, so we degraded, them to our terms

So the nurses from day one you can. Have hand washing stations. On the street educating people what is covid about all of a sudden, though, what happened to people living on the streets with their whole service system stopped, food washing. So who were the only outreach service That we wouldn’t normally. Provide those things that we we. We got our social enterprise. To do sandwiches and small  you know, microwaveable meals for a few weeks until some of that got sorted out. And you know, that was pretty amazing. People, when people could be useful, they felt a great sense of pride. And would put extra energy. And effort into making a difference, but at the same time we had to manage. Making sure our staff were safe. Making sure no. One felt that they were in a compromising position. Giving people choices about whether you know their role was OK for them depending. On their. Living situation. Some people were anxious about. You know, they might have had a partner. With a in. You know immunity issue or an aged parent. That they were. Looking after. So I think that. They you are constantly problem solving. And giving. People choices and and people needed to make their own decisions about some of these things. But COVID did give us an environment where we could just say yes, that that can happen because. Our service agreements were. Anything you need to do to. Make it work and. Work. You know you can not penalise. staff, if they have to have additional time off need to. Be very firm about. Not coming to work if. You’re sick, making sure people had good time off.

Francis Lynch

And and I mean Brisbane and and Queensland hasn’t had you know the 2nd wave that Victoria is is finishing or still experiencing. So you know you’ve gone through that first period of of adjustment. Is it still really impacting your decision making now in terms of you Know the prospects?

Karyn Walsh

Ohh yes

Francis Lynch

Yeah

Karyn Walsh

I think The fear of Community transmission is very real and the messaging you know, if you’re feeling sick, get tested and then then constantly if there’s a case rising. It’s would be the places this person went to. Did you go to those Places? Do you know people in those suburbs? Like our staff live across Brisbane. So you’re constantly monitoring. And paying attention to It people are, you know. Very cooperative around PPE’s and you know we. Do have the luxury of still coming. To work compared to Melbourne. So that means that they can do. Some things face to face it. Doesn’t all have to be over The Internet. And people out west are providing face to. Face services. So I think for us the. Issue is really a community. Why? What does this mean? If people are homeless again, what’s the strategy we’ve got for long term housing? How quickly is that going to come into play? And I think. Every every issue like child protection, domestic violence, making sure women weren’t located in a hotel year are respondent who had a DV order. Because we were the  service because we had the extremes of service. We could actually provide that. We could make sure that we had had. Different people in. Different places and. We’re looking at the safety. I mean, we had 42. Hotels at one time. So I think that you know. We did learn the value that integration can play. But we know. How difficult it is to have the funding that lets us do that.

Francis Lynch

Yeah, the flexibility is really is important..

 Karyn Walsh.

And and I think More than ever we saw. Our community service system have to be a community service system. Because the government services were either we got hospitals really did not want anyone to go in there. They didn’t need to be there. Corrections were, you know, some people. There’s a different approach. To whether they were getting incarcerated or. Not or, you know, minor. Crimes. So you really saw this change of Dynamics. But you know. There are times when it was. Just felt like chaos in practice so. So just managing. That feeling even in some. And just you know how risk. What risk levels people live with their safety is very compromised for a whole range of issues.

Francis Lynch

And and you mentioned staff before and you know I think it’s been a fairly universal experience of staff sometimes you know being concerned about are they going to contract the virus in their workplace and take it home. I mean.

How? How big?

An issue was that for you and your staff group and and is that still there?

Karyn Walsh

Yes, it’s always there. I don’t think. We’re, you know, I don’t think at. The moment homelessness whilst homeless people experiencing homelessness have  got quite significant numbers of those, those indicators of age, culture and With Torres Strait Islander or. Or to put you know health conditions that would make them susceptible, we haven’t seen that happen. We haven’t. Had any transmission. In the homeless population as such.

Francis Lynch

Now that’s great.

Karyn Walsh

but I think that. With community transmission, that’s a different issue. Because basically that creates this anxiety for people about well am I gonna get it. And how do I Know I’m gonna get it because in the. Very beginning it was. Very clear. You know, have you been overseas? Do you have a temperature? Have you been in contact with somebody as those really as the. Clarity around that changes and people don’t have symptoms. I think a different level of anxiety comes up so. I think as an organisation. We just to have to have that culture where. You’re problem solving. Listen to. People and and really you know. If this is real for you. Well, then what will we do? And if it Isn’t and and sometimes it. Is about with us things like. There’s a lot of myths about some things, like what’s a hotspot that’s there’s a whole new language that we’ve all heard

French Lynch

Exactly

Karyn Walsh

and I. Think it’s just tragic for. People that are in circumstances of you. Giving birth to children that are. Removed losing their children during this time to child protection, not being able. To have contact and not being able. To access the services. Or things that are. Real prior to this environment, but. This makes it a little bit harder. Because you’re dealing with. So many other unknown factors.

Francis Lynch

It sort of magnifies the impact for a lot of people.

Karyn Walsh

Yes, and I.

Think it’s really important for. Us that we keep things going that. Are hopeful. And that we keep you know so you know. That if there’s events that we’re going to be. Organised. There’s a way those events can happen on. Soon and how can we get People to use their phone and. How can we have small gatherings that multiple numbers of them, particularly around anyone who’s been advocating for change You know, but we. Just don’t drop that off. So that like you know, we’ve been working. With parents and the child protection system. It was really. Important to keep it going so they could contribute. What they’re what they. Were experiencing and. And that just. The whole world. Doesn’t come to a standstill. But you know, as you know it. Really does show up a digital divide. And we have a lot of people that. Are you know just excluded on the grounds of digital access. Affordability, you know, so it’s really Grey vented and interrupted. People have it for one month got to the next month, one week. They might be able to have credit the next week they don’t. So I think you know we’ve. We’ve been thinking, well, how Can we be a little bit more conscious of this. And what can we do to break that divide but we. Don’t have the answers. You know we’ve given away. Quite a few iPads. Well it certainly Ipads and given them away so people can stay in touch. But. I think that. There’s, there’s a lot of lessons that we’ve been. Talking about for a long time and there’s some new lessons

Francis Lynch

I wonder whether you’ve had the chance to start looking forward around some of that and and what you think you know might be.

Karyn Walsh

ohh definitely very sort of. Well, you know, our focus is that housing and. Healthcare are intricately related. homelessness You know, is a public health issue in itself, too many people die because they. Are on the streets too. Long they have premature deaths.

You know it’s Not something that affects the whole population, but it affects the significant their sons and daughters and brothers. And sisters of other people. Lots of families. Particularly, you know, the rates of disproportionate number of Aboriginal and Torres Strait. Islander people from across every whether it’s early interventional or crisis. You know the the. Number of women were more visible. And the the. Violence against women in. All its forms, not just domestic violence. It’s pretty visible. In the hotel. Whereas normally that’s not as visible. So I think you know. Really addressing some of those issues. Of complex trauma for women. You know, it reminded me we can’t forget about Women’s Health and what. Are the issues. Other than domestic violence that. Really impact on the quality. Of life of women and children. So I think that you know. There’s lots of things. That we are thinking about. In the future, like including keeping some of the digital stuff online. But mostly we want to push forward we we need permanent housing solutions. As that matter as a health issue and. And we need. We need governments to actually look at this issue of integration of our responses and and it doesn’t mean that government controls at all and everybody does everything the same. It means that. We’ve got much, much easier ways to be flexible and allow. Each other in and. Out of service delivery, but we’ve got to take treatment to people. We can’t have a health system that has the poor relying on access to services from hospitals. They really need assertive outreach to them. We know the cost benefit of that we we need treatment. We don’t just need to be in the position of psychosocial support. We actually need some NGO’s to be funded to have the professionals that. can deliver treatment. And not just. Have everybody on this referral pathway because some some. People are just so stuck. In being referred on to everybody all the time when.

Francis Lynch

It’s like that’s the. Job done is you’ve made a referral. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Karyn Walsh

And I think we’ve got to be very mindful that these systems don’t work, that we need to take services to people. Rather than, say, people. Are service resistant or non-compliant So I think the. Role of outreach like we we. Are primarily an outreach service. And I think, you know during COVID we realised that. You know, wow, it’s so. Important we are an outreach service. And what would we do if We worked. So it. Was sort of like. So many of the systems we have in place. Needed to certainly be reviewed and everyone. Needed training on infection. Joel always needs. But I think. Yeah, we’ve really gotta look at. A more holistic way. Of supporting people who have multiple needs and. Are very vulnerable. And also just supporting people who just need a. Little bit of support. Like so many. People we met. Were literally homeless because of. COVID they had. Lost their job. They weren’t on job seeker, but with a little bit of support and a little bit of navigation. Once they got their income, once they had the ability to problem solve themselves they were fine, they didn’t. To be supported and letting. Them know that this we can. Go for, you know, psychological healthcare, getting people. To use their. GP practice you know, and people were really grateful. For those tips. You know that they don’t need ongoing support so. We we just. Need to be mindful that it’s not. One-size-fits-all, which sometimes I think. Scares people because I. Think it’s going to cost too much money But it’s costing a lot. Of money anyway. It’s either costing more Law an order or corrections or. Someone it’s costing money.

Francis Lynch

That’s right, it’s just not.

Karyn Walsh

We would be doing that.

Francis Lynch

It’s just not reflected in in the way that decisions are made. A lot of the time so.

Karyn Walsh

It’s not servicing people in society the best way. It could be.

Francis Lynch

Yeah. Look it’s been really helpful to get an insight into what you’ve been doing at micro over these last few months. You know my my knowledge and experience of your services up there. And in Brisbane that you know your experience of those last three months and the value of being on the ground and being able to provide integrated services, you know whether it’s bringing the nurses in or still being able. To you know, support people face to face when a lot of services weren’t able to do that. You know, I think you know. It it sounds as though that experience has really been able to reflect in a in a great way of being able to support people during this time. I really hope that you know those lessons are are noticed and that there’s an opportunity. You know, for continuing, you know that sort of integration as as we move forward. So look, thank you Karyn so much for being able to tell us a little bit about that experience. Thanks.